Comments for Mystery of Israel http://the.mysteryofisrael.org Reflections on the Mystery of Israel and the Church - - - by Reggie Kelly Mon, 07 May 2012 03:29:53 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 Comment on How soon is “The Time of Jacob’s Trouble?” by The Timing of Jacob’s Trouble | Zion Christian Press http://the.mysteryofisrael.org/2008/11/02/how-soon-is-the-time-of-jacobs-trouble/comment-page-1/#comment-201 The Timing of Jacob’s Trouble | Zion Christian Press Mon, 07 May 2012 03:29:53 +0000 http://the.mysteryofisrael.org/?p=584#comment-201 [...] the tribulation and the rapture: The Time (timing) of Jacob’s Trouble [2009: Updated format here at [...] [...] the tribulation and the rapture: The Time (timing) of Jacob’s Trouble [2009: Updated format here at [...]

]]> Comment on Difficult Millennial Questions by Tom Quinlan http://the.mysteryofisrael.org/2012/04/12/difficult-millennial-questions/comment-page-1/#comment-198 Tom Quinlan Mon, 23 Apr 2012 02:32:34 +0000 http://the.mysteryofisrael.org/?p=2997#comment-198 Hi brother Dave, Reggie's article on "One or Two Peoples of God?" (Currently in the "Articles" menu) might be of interest here. I don't think you'll get much objection from Reggie on your statement about one people of God, unless the intent is to deny Israel's future role. Also, I don't think you'll hear us say that the Church is to take a back seat to the glorious promises of Israel in the millenium. There is certainly enough glory to go around. I just read this in Art's "Apostolic Foundations" today: "The greatest description of Israel’s millennial glory is probably in the book of Isaiah, and certain of the other prophets. For example, she will be named by a new name. Her people will be called the ministers of the Lord. Nations will come to her. She will be a diadem and crown in the hand of the Lord. The language is lavish to describe what this nation will be in the Millennium, so what then will the Millennium itself be? Restored Israel is not the administrator of that Kingdom, but the subject of it. The risen glorified church administers the Kingdom. It is the church who rule and reign with Christ. Israel will be the subjects of the Kingdom as much as they were under King David. This time they will be subjects under the Greater King David (Jesus), who will be their Prince and Ruler forever. They will make known the Kingdom in the same sense that the church today promulgates the gospel of the Kingdom, but the actual administration, the governing, the establishment of this rule of God in the earth is reserved as a privilege for a church of a particular kind. She has established her claim and credential to be co-rulers, and to rule and reign by virtue of her sacrifice, character and conduct in the earth." Those of us who come to Christ before He returns will be enjoying unhindered eternal reward by the time Israel is operating in their millennial blessing. You are right in saying that both sides of the tree are blessed. Hi brother Dave,

Reggie’s article on “One or Two Peoples of God?” (Currently in the “Articles” menu) might be of interest here. I don’t think you’ll get much objection from Reggie on your statement about one people of God, unless the intent is to deny Israel’s future role.

Also, I don’t think you’ll hear us say that the Church is to take a back seat to the glorious promises of Israel in the millenium. There is certainly enough glory to go around. I just read this in Art’s “Apostolic Foundations” today:

“The greatest description of Israel’s millennial glory is probably in the book of Isaiah, and certain of the other prophets. For example, she will be named by a new name. Her people will be called the ministers of the Lord. Nations will come to her. She will be a diadem and crown in the hand of the Lord. The language is lavish to describe what this nation will be in the Millennium, so what then will the Millennium itself be? Restored Israel is not the administrator of that Kingdom, but the subject of it. The risen glorified church administers the Kingdom. It is the church who rule and reign with Christ. Israel will be the subjects of the Kingdom as much as they were under King David. This time they will be subjects under the Greater King David (Jesus), who will be their Prince and Ruler forever. They will make known the Kingdom in the same sense that the church today promulgates the gospel of the Kingdom, but the actual administration, the governing, the establishment of this rule of God in the earth is reserved as a privilege for a church of a particular kind. She has established her claim and credential to be co-rulers, and to rule and reign by virtue of her sacrifice, character and conduct in the earth.”

Those of us who come to Christ before He returns will be enjoying unhindered eternal reward by the time Israel is operating in their millennial blessing. You are right in saying that both sides of the tree are blessed.

]]> Comment on Difficult Millennial Questions by Dave http://the.mysteryofisrael.org/2012/04/12/difficult-millennial-questions/comment-page-1/#comment-197 Dave Fri, 20 Apr 2012 10:45:04 +0000 http://the.mysteryofisrael.org/?p=2997#comment-197 I don't guess I have ever really thought about this or it just never crossed my mind. And I might be labeled "Replacement Theologist" by my view, but I do not see two people in the New Testament. I see one people, both Jew and Greek, unified by Jesus Christ. While Israel's blessings does not cease to exist, I do believe the Church shares in all the blessings promised to Abraham and his seed. Everything promised to Israel is now enjoined by the Church because of Christ. A "New" Covenant replaces the "Old" one. I believe this was the message Paul was trying to convey in Romans. If there is no longer an Old Covenant, then what happened to those things promised in the Old Covenant? God does not lie, so they will be fulfilled, but only in the scope of the New Covenant. The New Covenant wasn't for the Gentiles, but for Israel and only became available to us after Israel rejected Christ. We so often forget that. It is a better covenant than what God had originally made with them and they hoped to see the day that the Messiah came and fulfilled everything. If the Church shares in Israel's pain during the tribulation, then why doesn't the Church share the same blessings and promises made to Israel? I believe under the "New Covenant" we do. I do not think the Church replaces Israel, but rather joins Israel in their blessings and promises since we are both branches of the same tree. I don't believe you can bless one side of the tree (Israel) without blessing the other side (the Church). As far as the sacrificial system during the Mill, I do not believe there is room for that under the New Covenant. So there must be some other meaning in my opinion. Paul devoted almost the whole book of Romans on the subject of living under the law and how Christ was the once and for all sacrifice. So why would we, under the reign of Christ go back to what was temporary under the law? Again, I think there has to be some other meaning of Ezekiel's vision which you reference. So much of prophecy from the OT can only be seen clearly after its revelation. The Apostles and Jesus both demonstrate this when quoting OT passages and applying them differently than anyone would have thought. I believe this is the case for prophecy of the sacrificial system which would be a slap in the face of Jesus. It would suggest that He alone is not enough for Israel or us for that matter. While I haven't given it an in-depth study, that is my opinion just from reading your article and what I know of the New Covenant vs the Old Covenant. I don’t guess I have ever really thought about this or it just never crossed my mind. And I might be labeled “Replacement Theologist” by my view, but I do not see two people in the New Testament. I see one people, both Jew and Greek, unified by Jesus Christ. While Israel’s blessings does not cease to exist, I do believe the Church shares in all the blessings promised to Abraham and his seed. Everything promised to Israel is now enjoined by the Church because of Christ.

A “New” Covenant replaces the “Old” one. I believe this was the message Paul was trying to convey in Romans. If there is no longer an Old Covenant, then what happened to those things promised in the Old Covenant? God does not lie, so they will be fulfilled, but only in the scope of the New Covenant. The New Covenant wasn’t for the Gentiles, but for Israel and only became available to us after Israel rejected Christ. We so often forget that. It is a better covenant than what God had originally made with them and they hoped to see the day that the Messiah came and fulfilled everything.

If the Church shares in Israel’s pain during the tribulation, then why doesn’t the Church share the same blessings and promises made to Israel? I believe under the “New Covenant” we do. I do not think the Church replaces Israel, but rather joins Israel in their blessings and promises since we are both branches of the same tree. I don’t believe you can bless one side of the tree (Israel) without blessing the other side (the Church).

As far as the sacrificial system during the Mill, I do not believe there is room for that under the New Covenant. So there must be some other meaning in my opinion. Paul devoted almost the whole book of Romans on the subject of living under the law and how Christ was the once and for all sacrifice. So why would we, under the reign of Christ go back to what was temporary under the law? Again, I think there has to be some other meaning of Ezekiel’s vision which you reference.

So much of prophecy from the OT can only be seen clearly after its revelation. The Apostles and Jesus both demonstrate this when quoting OT passages and applying them differently than anyone would have thought. I believe this is the case for prophecy of the sacrificial system which would be a slap in the face of Jesus. It would suggest that He alone is not enough for Israel or us for that matter. While I haven’t given it an in-depth study, that is my opinion just from reading your article and what I know of the New Covenant vs the Old Covenant.

]]> Comment on Saved By Grace | by John Bunyan by Mystery of Israel » Blog Archive » The Question of Hell http://the.mysteryofisrael.org/saved-by-grace-by-john-bunyan/comment-page-1/#comment-192 Mystery of Israel » Blog Archive » The Question of Hell Fri, 13 Apr 2012 01:49:27 +0000 http://the.mysteryofisrael.org/?page_id=2986#comment-192 [...] would you consider to read a little booklet that made all the difference in my life? It is, “Saved by Grace,” by John Bunyan. He was the author of the famous, “Pilgrim’s [...] [...] would you consider to read a little booklet that made all the difference in my life? It is, “Saved by Grace,” by John Bunyan. He was the author of the famous, “Pilgrim’s [...]

]]> Comment on Preterism’s Achilles’ Heel by Mystery of Israel » Blog Archive » Preterism http://the.mysteryofisrael.org/articles/preterisms-achilles-heel/comment-page-1/#comment-178 Mystery of Israel » Blog Archive » Preterism Mon, 12 Mar 2012 02:19:57 +0000 http://the.mysteryofisrael.org/?page_id=72#comment-178 [...] a more detailed statement see the article “Preterism’s Achilles Heel” Dec 7, 2007 7:23 AM, Reggie, I have a friend who is pretty well versed in the scriptures. We [...] [...] a more detailed statement see the article “Preterism’s Achilles Heel” Dec 7, 2007 7:23 AM, Reggie, I have a friend who is pretty well versed in the scriptures. We [...]

]]> Comment on Convocation 2010 by Mystery of Israel » Blog Archive » Will Jews be expelled again from their Land? http://the.mysteryofisrael.org/convocation-2010/comment-page-1/#comment-177 Mystery of Israel » Blog Archive » Will Jews be expelled again from their Land? Sun, 11 Mar 2012 20:14:32 +0000 http://the.mysteryofisrael.org/?page_id=1091#comment-177 [...] the conference, I plan to work with a friend and colleague from New Zealand (Dalton Lifsey) on a joint writing [...] [...] the conference, I plan to work with a friend and colleague from New Zealand (Dalton Lifsey) on a joint writing [...]

]]> Comment on The Rapture Question Decisively Answered by the Timing of the Day of the Lord by Mystery of Israel » Blog Archive » Imminence http://the.mysteryofisrael.org/2011/05/23/the-time-of-the-day-of-the-lord-in-relation-to-the-rapture-question/comment-page-1/#comment-170 Mystery of Israel » Blog Archive » Imminence Mon, 06 Feb 2012 00:58:13 +0000 http://the.mysteryofisrael.org/?p=2614#comment-170 [...] I have shown in an ear­lier writ­ing (“The Rap­ture Ques­tion Deci­sively Answered by the Tim­ing of the Day of the Lord”), the ques­tion of immi­nence is best decided by a study of the day of the Lord. A pop­u­lar [...] [...] I have shown in an ear­lier writ­ing (“The Rap­ture Ques­tion Deci­sively Answered by the Tim­ing of the Day of the Lord”), the ques­tion of immi­nence is best decided by a study of the day of the Lord. A pop­u­lar [...]

]]> Comment on The Mortal Wound by Aaron http://the.mysteryofisrael.org/2011/08/27/the-mortal-wound/comment-page-1/#comment-165 Aaron Sat, 14 Jan 2012 03:28:07 +0000 http://the.mysteryofisrael.org/?p=2698#comment-165 Reggie, I would love to discuss this subject personally with you. In the past I believed that the mortal wound did refer to the death and resurrection of anti christ but I've come to a different conviction since. Although I've always realized that it could be speaking of anti christ. I can not yet see why he "must" die in order to be possessed by Satan in what you call the mystery of iniquity but I could be convinced of it. My personal understanding of it is that the mortally wounded "head" is a wounded nation. the head that was, and is not, and yet is; is the 7th head which is also the 8th. which means the 7th empire was wounded and will be revived. I find an amazing coloration if not fulfillment of these scriptures in the fall of the Islamic caliphate (ottoman empire) and the current rise of Islam even current discussion on reestablishing the caliphate! But as I stated this does not mean that It could not apply to the person of anti christ as well. Yours in the Lord, Aaron Reggie, I would love to discuss this subject personally with you. In the past I believed that the mortal wound did refer to the death and resurrection of anti christ but I’ve come to a different conviction since. Although I’ve always realized that it could be speaking of anti christ. I can not yet see why he “must” die in order to be possessed by Satan in what you call the mystery of iniquity but I could be convinced of it.
My personal understanding of it is that the mortally wounded “head” is a wounded nation. the head that was, and is not, and yet is; is the 7th head which is also the 8th. which means the 7th empire was wounded and will be revived. I find an amazing coloration if not fulfillment of these scriptures in the fall of the Islamic caliphate (ottoman empire) and the current rise of Islam even current discussion on reestablishing the caliphate! But as I stated this does not mean that It could not apply to the person of anti christ as well.

Yours in the Lord, Aaron

]]> Comment on Flesh and Blood Shall Not Inherit the Kingdom by Aaron http://the.mysteryofisrael.org/2011/09/28/flesh-and-blood-shall-not-inherit-the-kingdom/comment-page-1/#comment-164 Aaron Sat, 14 Jan 2012 01:51:51 +0000 http://the.mysteryofisrael.org/?p=2721#comment-164 Thanks Reggie, I've wondered about this myself. Very well put. I have the personal feeling that visible, physical interaction between the Glorified saints and yet natural humans will be at least slightly more prevalent in the Millennium than it is now, but I guess we can only speculate. Thanks Reggie, I’ve wondered about this myself. Very well put. I have the personal feeling that visible, physical interaction between the Glorified saints and yet natural humans will be at least slightly more prevalent in the Millennium than it is now, but I guess we can only speculate.

]]> Comment on I Pray Not For The World by Dave http://the.mysteryofisrael.org/2008/02/18/i-pray-not-for-the-world/comment-page-1/#comment-151 Dave Fri, 16 Dec 2011 00:18:10 +0000 http://the.mysteryofisrael.org/?p=205#comment-151 Romans 8:28-30 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (NASB) I believe the Bible teaches at least some are predestined, if not all, before we are ever born. I believe this was illustrated perfectly in Jeremiah. Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. (Jeremiah 1:5) In Romans 9 we see that God makes some vessels for honor and some for dishonor, and we are not to question His decision as to why He does this. Matthew 22:14 (Many are called, but few are CHOSEN.) I know the doctrine of predestination, which will get you labeled as a Calvanist, is not a popular doctrine. The bible clearly teaches freewill and it clearly teaches predestination. It's not easy to get both doctrines to play nicely with each other. I do believe certain people are born for the very purpose of accomplishing a certain task, as Jeremiah was, and cannot resist the will of God, simply because what God wants, God gets, end of story. In Luke, we see that John the Baptist leaped in the womb of Elizabeth when Mary entered the room. John was born for a specific purpose and under no circumstance could have resisted the will of God. It is definitely a subject that will fuel passion on those that believe in freewill only and those who believe in predestination. I am of the belief that man has limited freewill. God don't pick out what you are having for supper, that is up to you, but He has a course for certain peoples lives and they will adhere to His will regardless of their will. Even the doctrine of "freewill" is not true freewill. True freewill is being able to not choose God or Satan, but to exist independent of both if one so chooses. But God has narrowed the choice for you and you must choose one of the choices He has picked, either Life or Death, according to the freewill doctrine. I argue that is not freewill at all. Freewill says, "I choose God" and predestination says, "God chooses you". Which a person chooses to believe is entirely up to them, as strong arguments are made on both sides. Romans 8:28-30

28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. (NASB)

I believe the Bible teaches at least some are predestined, if not all, before we are ever born. I believe this was illustrated perfectly in Jeremiah.

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. (Jeremiah 1:5)

In Romans 9 we see that God makes some vessels for honor and some for dishonor, and we are not to question His decision as to why He does this.

Matthew 22:14 (Many are called, but few are CHOSEN.)

I know the doctrine of predestination, which will get you labeled as a Calvanist, is not a popular doctrine. The bible clearly teaches freewill and it clearly teaches predestination. It’s not easy to get both doctrines to play nicely with each other.

I do believe certain people are born for the very purpose of accomplishing a certain task, as Jeremiah was, and cannot resist the will of God, simply because what God wants, God gets, end of story. In Luke, we see that John the Baptist leaped in the womb of Elizabeth when Mary entered the room. John was born for a specific purpose and under no circumstance could have resisted the will of God.

It is definitely a subject that will fuel passion on those that believe in freewill only and those who believe in predestination. I am of the belief that man has limited freewill. God don’t pick out what you are having for supper, that is up to you, but He has a course for certain peoples lives and they will adhere to His will regardless of their will.

Even the doctrine of “freewill” is not true freewill. True freewill is being able to not choose God or Satan, but to exist independent of both if one so chooses. But God has narrowed the choice for you and you must choose one of the choices He has picked, either Life or Death, according to the freewill doctrine. I argue that is not freewill at all.

Freewill says, “I choose God” and predestination says, “God chooses you”. Which a person chooses to believe is entirely up to them, as strong arguments are made on both sides.

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